An interview with Brian Vaughan - December 1999

Could you describe how you met Skip and your relationship with him?

Skip was introduced to me through a mutual friend- a very nice fellow named Michael Kelly. I met Mike in February 1994 on the way home from work one night on the San Jose State University campus, which I lived very close to at the time- about 2 blocks south of it. Mike & I had a great conversation & when he learned that I was a musician, he said he knew Skip Spence & that he could introduce us. I knew who Skip was, & naturally said to definitely hook us up. I was surprised that Skip was actually living in my neighborhood in downtown San Jose.

Because of scheduling situations, Mike didn't get Skip & me introduced until early May 1994. On 3-31-94 I saw the front- page article in the local newspaper "Metro" on Skip & was blown away at how rotten his life had been, with my past being slightly similar in some ways (though I am still unknown & have not been in a famous band, etc.). I was looking for Skip before we met, but didn't find him- though I was practically in his front yard (he lived by 9th. & San Fernando and I was at 11th. & William- 6 blocks apart).

On the day Mike introduced us, Skip conversed with us & was very interested in me, was very friendly, like meeting a brother you missed earlier, but always wanted to know. We had a good time talking about music, philosophic matters, getting together to jam, exchanging stories about life & more. We were both looking forward to the next meeting when we would probably jam. Then, a week or so later, Mike brought Skip with him to the apartment I was in & we spent an afternoon chatting & playing tunes. Except for a request from Mike for "Omaha", Skip mostly played stuff that hadn't been recorded yet.

He was interested in my material, so I played some tunes for him & he joined in- it was really cool. He jammed to stuff that was unknown to him & it sounded like he knew the material. We were both intrigued by each other"s styles- we were coming from some different directions & had different backgrounds, but we both crossed the void & met right in the middle. Everything was going well- we hit it off both personally & musically, also spiritually. As of this meeting we were discussing more sessions to work on music & also getting a new band going. Two weeks or so later, Skip came over again & played some really amazing free- form guitar music by himself for awhile, then we jammed some more & discussed some ideas. He told me that our friendship & musical activities had given him new hope- sort of a new lease on life.

In the summer of 1994 I had to find a new place to live & work 2 jobs & Skip was in the process of moving, too. I stopped by & visited him when he was around & called him on the phone (our last contact for a few months was a phone conversation in late July '94). After that, we had no way of reaching each other. We had moved at the same time ( in august '94). We lost track of each other until early 1995. Mike Kelly had gotten Skip's new phone # somehow, so I called & introduced myself to Terry Lewis ( Skip's girlfriend). We got back in touch in March, 1995. Morgan O'Conner ( my girlfriend) & I went to the Santa Cruz area to meet them. It was a nice reunion for Skip & I, and we all made new friends.

What did you think of Skip's music, writing and performing ?

I never saw Skip or Moby Grape perform until the '90(s). Back in 1973, I had a friend who turned me on to Moby Grape. He had all their albums up to "20 Granite Creek"- which was all there was at the time ( I believe). The first album & "Wow" got played the most. Wally (my friend) was a total Skip fan- it was this first exposure that made me aware of Skip & Moby Grape. I thought their music was really great, but didn't know much about them for many years.

Skip's solo album "Oar" had been out of print for a long time- but in the mid '80(s) I heard 2 songs written by Skip played on a college radio station. My memory is incomplete, but the songs were extremely good & made a lasting impression on me. It is an unusual situation, but I heard more of Skip's solo material when I met him than I ever could before. Skip's music & writing are all very unique. He has written some of the best music & has influenced many bands & artists.

Skip is one of the 20th Century's greatest composers. He would work out all of the parts of a tune- including all instruments- in his mind. He came up with parts for instruments he didn't always have access to, in fact, he wrote a lot of stuff in his head with no instruments at all to play on during parts of his life- he could sing & tap tempos & imagine all the other parts until he had something to play them on, whether it was guitar, bass, drums or something else. Skip could also remember huge amounts of this & other information over decades of time, which many people cannot do. I can also write tunes in my head, but I usually seek the assistance of an instrument to work it out, which makes it easier for me to assimilate & memorize parts I would otherwise mostly forget- so I found Skip's abilities truly amazing.

As a performer, again, Skip is very unique. Since I've had the opportunity to work with him, I can honestly say that most people who do like Skip & Moby Grape still don't know how good Skip was by himself ( mainly because the recordings available to the public are limited in number & Skip's work has been obscured through time- plus some critics who are ignorant have been unkind).

The amount of things Skip knew was amazing. He learned a lot of other people's songs that he liked. We sometimes had fun playing his versions of songs by Hendrix, the Rolling Stones, old blues tunes, old spiritual songs ( Amazing Grace was one), the list goes on. Lots of times he would play the cover songs by himself & would also play some Spanish classical style guitar. A lot of Skip's technique, particularly on acoustic guitar, had a lot of classical elements in it. He was better known for folk & rock, but he could do much more. When he played a cover, you could tell what song it was- but Skip could make it sound like he wrote it himself, the way Hendrix did with Dylan's "All Along the Watchtower".

Skip embraced new ideas in his work. His interest extended out to electronic music & experimental forms as well. His style could expand into any range or form- but he was never lost, his signature was still there, whatever new form it was written in. He would never stagnate or remain static. He even played his old songs in different ways at different times.Most of his time spent on music was used to create his own tunes. He also has a great sense of humor. Playing tunes with him was fun & very interesting. There was definitely magic there. There still is.
How much material did you record with Skip, what sort of stuff, when, where, and what are the chances of these being released?

The total amount of material Skip & I recorded together that would be released is approx. 3 C.D.(s) worth, with each C.D. being in the neighborhood of (possibly) 50 minutes in length, give or take a few minor factors. By 1970(s) vinyl record standards, it could be packaged as two double albums.

The sort of music we did together covers a wide range. Naturally,some of it is quite psychedelic, some pieces are hard rock, others are bluesy or folk / country- like, at least 2 pieces sound like jazz / rock fusion, there is some space music & progressive / experimental stuff as well. Every time we played & recorded together it was different. A lot of it is raw, edgy, but sincere, like "Oar", but also way different from "Oar"- most of what we did was instrumental pieces. All of the guitar tracks we did together have that "live" quality. Most were done in one take- essentially a live studio recording. Some later pieces were all overdubbed, but just a handful. All the other tracks ( bass, keyboards, drums, etc.are overdubbed as well- or will be).

We were basically collaborators- even though the first batch of songs we recorded were things Skip had written in the '70(s) & 80(s), he never told me what to play. Skip would usually play the "body" of the song ( rhythm guitar, but also had solo parts & tunes that had blends of both chords & scales). At first I usually played lead guitar & blended in with rhythmic patterns when Skip did a solo. Later on, I introduced some rhythm pieces for Skip to play lead guitar to,so we kept changing things around & getting new sounds ( his lead guitar playing is very cool).

We started recording in November, 1995 & everything Skip played was recorded in the living room of the house he lived in. We recorded a lot in December 1995, had numerous sessions in '96, not too many in '97, but we were recording frequently throughout 1998, up to early 1999. From the end of '97 on Skip had a sort of rebirth- he was writing new material, practicing quite a bit, & coming off with spontaneous virtuoso performances that would blow your mind (not the best way of describing it, but true, anyway). I wish I could have recorded them all- but being prepared at all times just isn't physically possible. Because of this new energy, 1998 was a productive year for us. 1997 was full of setbacks (I had a few of my own, too).

As far as I can tell, the chances of this music being released should be good. It is my belief that it must come out- Skip wanted that to happen. We actually tried to get something out by 1997, but we've had obstacles to overcome.I'm hoping to get one C.D. of this music out next year (2000). Even though this is technically just the cusp of the new century, it will be a great way to start the new millenium.
Land of the Sun appears on the "MORE OAR" tribute CD released in June of 1999. THe track was intended for the X-Files. Could you give us some details on when this was recorded, how it was done, the original mix, Skip's drumming, how much was "cut out", The X-files turning it down... Jack Casady's involvement...

"Land of the Sun" was recorded during December, 1995 in several stages. Skip & I laid down 3 different versions of it by mid- December (just guitar tracks). The version we picked was either #2 or #3. It was an extended jam with really interesting inter-play between our guitars & I had a mic set up for Skip's vocal, which consisted of laughs, spontaneous statements, etc., adding a really cool & spooky vibe to the tune- it matched the music perfectly. The lyric vocals were done later. We were using classic gear for this- Skip played my white stratocaster (strats were his favorite electric's), I played my 1979 Gibson S.G., we both used tube pre-amps, but preferred digital effects.My Tascam 424 (4- track) was used to record the basic tracks. These 4- tracks are surprisingly good when used effectively, they can give great results. Most early sessions were miked with Shure SM 57 & 58 microphones.

The original mix was at first a demo of the two guitars & the ambient vocal- this is what was presented to Warner Bros. to see if they wanted to work with it. I did critical listening & edited a portion of our jam that was the crown jewel of the track- it was just under 5 minutes. There was a nice guitar solo in the middle from Skip & we both increased the dynamic intensity of the tune at the end, leaving a coda of my naked rhythm guitar to close the song. A fellow named John Chellew was contacting Terry Lewis & Skip re.: getting a song from Skip for the "X-Files" & John was in liaison with Warner Bros. As soon as I had the demo for "Land of the Sun" mixed, Chellew had me play the recording over the phone for him. His reaction was favorable, & he had me express mail a copy of it to him for a meeting with record company executives. He took the copy to the meeting & after that we got the news that "they" liked the tune.

Chellew got bankrolled by W.B. to help finish the work & get the master tape to them. Because of some "rush" to get the song in the can by January,1996, we had to record Skip's vocal track on 12-25-95 (!). This was done where Skip & Terry lived. Chellew was dropping names left & right- he mentioned calling Jack Casady, & was blowing smoke about getting Grace Slick & Spencer Dryden in on it, too- we've all been around long enough to know shuck & jive when we see it.

As for the recording, we now had two vocal tracks in addition to the 2 guitar tracks. Chellew had a studio in San Francisco booked for 12-29-95, so soon after I went home I had to help John by loading the tracks onto 2 digital audio tape cartridges. I had a radio program at San Jose State University on their station (KSJS), so I was able to use their production studio to do the work. The guitars went on one d.a.t. & the vocals went on the other. Chellew had what he needed.

Backtracking a little, Jefferson Starship was playing at a club in Santa Cruz (Palookaville) before Christmas, and Casady was playing with them. We ( Terry, her cousin Debbie, Morgan & me) went to see them & talked to Paul Kantner & Jack Casady after the concert. Paul had heard that Jack might be doing something with us, but nothing was confirmed. Jack had heard from Chellew, but didn't know if this was a "for sure" thing yet. Terry & I told Jack to call Chellew to be sure arrangements were made, we had a date for 12-29-95. Jack did call & this went through as planned. Terry & I still believe that Casady wouldn't have made it if we didn't make sure of the confirmation. Just before the studio date Terry, Skip & I decided to get Peter Lewis in on the project. We didn't like Chellew's influence & Peter is a real friend to us all. Other Grape members were not available at the time on such short notice, from what I recall.

So, on 12-29-95, Skip, Terry, Peter & myself went to Mobius studio in San Francisco. We got there right around lunch or a little after. The first thing we heard was a tabla player practicing rhythms to "Land of the Sun". He was from the Ali Akbar Khan music conservatory. When he was done, Skip went in to do some drum tracks. I was watching him in the control room- he looked happy. I gave him a "thumbs-up" & he smiled. He did 3 takes of drumwork & it sounded great. Later on, both Skip & Peter went in & when they came back, Peter was describing a vocal track he had done (if I remember correctly). The last player to show up was Jack Casady. He got there in the early evening. Skip had a good time talking to Jack after nearly 30 years.At one point Jack was really jamming on his bass during his warm-up. We all went to the control room to check it out.

Skip picked up an acoustic guitar & showed Jack the chords for "Land of the Sun". Not long after this, Chellew exiled the rest of us from the control room to talk to Casady. Not cool at all (Jack wasn't recording yet, besides). A little later Jack came up for air & we all got to chat for awhile before we had to leave. Skip & Jack talked about the possibility of recording more. Jack said he would do it between other gigs & that he was in & out of the area on a regular basis, so if something was set up at a good time he could work with us. Unfortunately, Jack never returned a call (you could only leave him messages). Skip was very disappointed & I was let down too- we both liked Jack's musicianship & the encounter on this day seemed positive.

Chellew had Mobius booked for the weekend (12-30 & 12-31-95) to mix the song.Several weeks later, he drove to where Skip & Terry stayed & left a copy. They gave it to me & I still have it. We were not thrilled with the results to put it mildly. Here is what John had done: he had the guitar tracks looped into simpler repetitive fragments, the solos were gone, only traces of butchered licks remained. Skip's drum tracks never made it into the mix (a hanging offense in my book), whatever Peter Lewis did wasn't in there, either ( I never got to hear Peter's part). Jack's bassline was very prominent, however. What Chellew did was take a spooky psychedelic dirge & try to make it into a pseudo-industrial / commercial sort of thing. No one needs guys like him working on their songs! Skip was glad to have worked with Jack again, almost in spite of the result. He did like the song much better before Chellew's "treatment", however.

Another thing John Chellew did was when he got the demo I sent him, he did not tell anyone at W.B. that Skip was working with me.They didn't know I existed until a bit later. John informed me of this in a conversation before he left on the evening of 12-25-95. I had to suppress an urge to bust him up into little pieces & go chumming for sharks with him. The cassette I mailed him had info. on the label as well as the card insert on Skip & I both playing & also the fact that I recorded it. We knew we couldn't trust this guy, but we had to see if Skip could possibly get something out of it, like something to help him & his career.

We didn't hear anything until sometime in spring 1996, when the X-Files C.D. came out in March or maybe early April. I saw for myself that "Land of the Sun" didn't make it on the release by reading a review on it ( also in "Metro", I believe). The C.D. got a bad review ( in a way it served 'em right), though I don't have anything against the artists involved ( I am a fan of R.E.M.). Someday I may actually listen to it ( forgive me, but some things don't come easy).

We think Chellew's version of "Land of the Sun" was turned down because it wasn't what "they" heard in "the meeting", or whatever. First they heard what we originally did & paid money to get it, then got a substandard degradation of it.They bought what John served up, but they didn't have to use it. Terry heard an unconfirmed rumor earlier this year that someone said "Land of the Sun" was "too spooky", so that's why it was dropped. Even after all we've been through, I think of this as a back-handed compliment. "Too spooky" for the "X-Files"- now that's scary!

[ PART TWO ]

[ Brian's Web Site ] [ LINK BEING UPDATED - April 2007 ]

For information on the reissue of Skip Spence's solo album "OAR"
read the producer's note from Sundazed:
[ OAR ]

[ Picnic ]

[ Psychedelicatessen Menu ]